[raider]

then someone should sue the SYSTEM for religious discrimination

whatever happened to "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

[PhotoRon286]

m&m, on 12 January 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Money is one thing, morals is another. I wouldn't shoot it as I believe that should be reserved for a man and a woman.

Pretty narrow minded view, but the Rep. party needs more members.

Do you ask the bride beforehand if she's a virgin?

[Gary Fox]

PhotoRon286, on 12 January 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Pretty narrow minded view, but the Rep. party needs more members.

Do you ask the bride beforehand if she's a virgin?

[m&m]

PhotoRon286, on 12 January 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Pretty narrow minded view, but the Rep. party needs more members.

Do you ask the bride beforehand if she's a virgin?

Since when does one need to explain their religion to anyone in US?

Who said I am a member of any party?

[m&m]

photobuggie, on 12 January 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

You can't refuse to photograph a same sex wedding even if you claim it is against your religious beliefs. The courts have held that it is sexual orientation discrimination.

In our state there are no same sex mariages allowed, therefore I wouldn't need to explain to anyone why we will not do it. Sounds like the courts you are talking about might have been in a state that has laws that allow such thing.

[m&m]

PhotoRon286, on 12 January 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Do you ask the bride beforehand if she's a virgin?

How exactly does that equal same sex wedding?

I don't care what you do with your partner (or whatever/whoever) as long as you are not violating any laws. I however will not sign a wedding photography contract between my business and someone I don't want to work for. There can be more reasons then the nature of their sexual orientation. I might just happen to not want to work that particular day!!!

[JeremyW]

m&m, on 13 January 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

In our state there are no same sex mariages allowed, therefore I wouldn't need to explain to anyone why we will not do it. Sounds like the courts you are talking about might have been in a state that has laws that allow such thing.

O.K. let me ask you something. What does it really matter if a same sex marriage is "legal" in your state in relation to being hired as a photographer? I wouldnt care if it was legal or illegal for that matter I would be hired as a photographer and i am not committing a crime by taking pictures so bring it on! Most same sex marriages arent really "LEGAL" marriages but why do they not deserve to have their memories captured as a normal wedding couple. And as a photographer why do you care unless you are wholly against same sex marriages and dont want to associate your business with the homosexual community then whats the big deal and who is discriminating then?

[Gary Fox]

JeremyW, on 13 January 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

O.K. let me ask you something. What does it really matter if a same sex marriage is "legal" in your state in relation to being hired as a photographer? I wouldnt care if it was legal or illegal for that matter I would be hired as a photographer and i am not committing a crime by taking pictures so bring it on! Most same sex marriages arent really "LEGAL" marriages but why do they not deserve to have their memories captured as a normal wedding couple. And as a photographer why do you care unless you are wholly against same sex marriages and dont want to associate your business with the homosexual community then whats the big deal and who is discriminating then?

Like I said, I think g a y couples should have the right to be miserable just like everyone else .... and as for adoption ? why should straight couples be the only ones to be sleep deprived for at least the first 5 years, and have to worry about the kids getting their drivers liscence, and paying for college tuition.

This was all started as a funny comment I made, hopefully it will end that way

[m&m]

JeremyW, on 13 January 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

O.K. let me ask you something. What does it really matter if a same sex marriage is "legal" in your state in relation to being hired as a photographer? I wouldnt care if it was legal or illegal for that matter I would be hired as a photographer and i am not committing a crime by taking pictures so bring it on! Most same sex marriages arent really "LEGAL" marriages but why do they not deserve to have their memories captured as a normal wedding couple. And as a photographer why do you care unless you are wholly against same sex marriages and dont want to associate your business with the homosexual community then whats the big deal and who is discriminating then?

1) I was responding to a post claiming they could sue me if I would deny to photograph their weddings. Since they cannot have an official wedding in my state, they could hardly sue me for refusing to photograph it. Either way I found that comment stupid and have hard time seeing how a court could force some company to agree to a contract.

2) Same sex marriages are illegal in my state. They are not in any way comparable to a normal wedding couple. My opinion and for now that is the official position of my state. Not arguing against those living in states where that is interpreted differently.

3) As a person I am wholly against same sex marriages and therefore wouldn't involve my business in one, which is the beauty of owning your own business as you can control what you will and will not do. I also respect the freedom of others, and therefore if they are not violating law, I don't really care what they do. I would only expect the same from them. I don't feel that it is discriminating against anyone, as a quick google search will bring up thousands of wedding photographers eager to shoot a wedding at a loss. Great day for those who want to get a wedding ceremony captured.

[photobuggie]

m&m, on 13 January 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

1) I was responding to a post claiming they could sue me if I would deny to photograph their weddings. Since they cannot have an official wedding in my state, they could hardly sue me for refusing to photograph it. Either way I found that comment stupid and have hard time seeing how a court could force some company to agree to a contract.

2) Same sex marriages are illegal in my state. They are not in any way comparable to a normal wedding couple. My opinion and for now that is the official position of my state. Not arguing against those living in states where that is interpreted differently.

3) As a person I am wholly against same sex marriages and therefore wouldn't involve my business in one, which is the beauty of owning your own business as you can control what you will and will not do. I also respect the freedom of others, and therefore if they are not violating law, I don't really care what they do. I would only expect the same from them. I don't feel that it is discriminating against anyone, as a quick google search will bring up thousands of wedding photographers eager to shoot a wedding at a loss. Great day for those who want to get a wedding ceremony captured.

You can't possibly be this naive. You really don't understand how a court could force a company to provide services? Do you think your company is special and exempt from federal and state laws? There are federal laws which prohibit discrimination based upon sexual preference. States have the same laws. You are not exempt from these laws. Your business under the law is considered to be a public accommodation which is “any establishment which caters or offers its services or facilities or goods to the general public. That was the exact basis for that lawsuit against that photographer. Similar lawsuits have been filed and won against other types of businesses whether it is a wedding venue or a florist. Just because your state has not legalized same sex marriages doesn't mean that you won't be asked to photograph a same sex marriage. Some same sex couples have ceremonies that are symbolic of their commitment even if not recognized in the state.

Whether you understand it or not, if you refuse on the basis of your personal religious or moral beliefs, be prepared to open your wallet because it will cost you and could result in your business be closed down.

[cloudnine]

Even if same sex marriage is not legalized in your state , if you get a call and some one is asking you to do a same sex engagement shoot , children's pictures for the mentally challenged , an inter racial marriage , or anything of that description....you may just be on the phone with the ACLU and not know it , especially if you recently decline something edgy. Proceed with caution .

The Equal opportunity and discrimination laws that are on the books are so complex and so inundated with gray areas ,and vary so much from state to state , even vary by the size of your company..there is no point debating the legality of it with such a diverse group of people that are spread across the nation as we are all subject to different laws on the books.

Morally , I would shoot it . I would not turn down a g a y couple photo shoot. I have however , on several circumstances , refused to do couple shoots that involve horse and carriage in NYC due to my stance on the mistreatment of those animals ( there are good owners , but they are the minority ) . They drop dead in the street at least once or twice every 2 months . I won't promote them in any way until there are strict regulations that are enforced.

We all have our issues I suppose.

[summers.enemy]

I would love to do same sex weddings or commitment ceremonies!

And as far as going with Gary's original intent... think of all the possible g a y divorces. So much extra potential for repeat clients.

[m&m]

cloudnine, on 13 January 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Even if same sex marriage is not legalized in your state , if you get a call and some one is asking you to do a same sex engagement shoot , children's pictures for the mentally challenged , an inter racial marriage , or anything of that description....you may just be on the phone with the ACLU and not know it , especially if you recently decline something edgy. Proceed with caution .

The Equal opportunity and discrimination laws that are on the books are so complex and so inundated with gray areas ,and vary so much from state to state , even vary by the size of your company..there is no point debating the legality of it with such a diverse group of people that are spread across the nation as we are all subject to different laws on the books.

Morally , I would shoot it . I would not turn down a g a y couple photo shoot. I have however , on several circumstances , refused to do couple shoots that involve horse and carriage in NYC due to my stance on the mistreatment of those animals ( there are good owners , but they are the minority ) . They drop dead in the street at least once or twice every 2 months . I won't promote them in any way until there are strict regulations that are enforced.

We all have our issues I suppose.

you better watch out so buggie don't sue you for that

[m&m]

photobuggie, on 13 January 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

You can't possibly be this naive. You really don't understand how a court could force a company to provide services? Do you think your company is special and exempt from federal and state laws? There are federal laws which prohibit discrimination based upon sexual preference. States have the same laws. You are not exempt from these laws. Your business under the law is considered to be a public accommodation which is “any establishment which caters or offers its services or facilities or goods to the general public. That was the exact basis for that lawsuit against that photographer. Similar lawsuits have been filed and won against other types of businesses whether it is a wedding venue or a florist. Just because your state has not legalized same sex marriages doesn't mean that you won't be asked to photograph a same sex marriage. Some same sex couples have ceremonies that are symbolic of their commitment even if not recognized in the state.

Whether you understand it or not, if you refuse on the basis of your personal religious or moral beliefs, be prepared to open your wallet because it will cost you and could result in your business be closed down.

nobody, I tell you, nobody can make you do work that would violate your freedom of religion, I guarantee to you that there is no way I would photograph a g a y wedding. There is no federal law that could order my company to work, when it is already "booked for another client, or simply not interested in doing the work"! If you are not pre-qualifying your clients right now, then I highly doubt you are a wedding/portrait photographer for a living. How you are pre-qualifying them is only up to you. Our clients always sign contract first, if I don't sign it, I would like to know what exactly would convince the court to say I was somehow obligated to do the job.

Ultimately, this situation will not happen, and it is a waste of time to argue with you to begin with. My religious and moral beliefs will always mean the most to me. As a business I would not enter into such work, just like I wouldn't into other things in life that I may find immoral or somehow wrong.

[photobuggie]

m&m, on 13 January 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

nobody, I tell you, nobody can make you do work that would violate your freedom of religion, I guarantee to you that there is no way I would photograph a g a y wedding. There is no federal law that could order my company to work, when it is already "booked for another client, or simply not interested in doing the work"! If you are not pre-qualifying your clients right now, then I highly doubt you are a wedding/portrait photographer for a living. How you are pre-qualifying them is only up to you. Our clients always sign contract first, if I don't sign it, I would like to know what exactly would convince the court to say I was somehow obligated to do the job.

Ultimately, this situation will not happen, and it is a waste of time to argue with you to begin with. My religious and moral beliefs will always mean the most to me. As a business I would not enter into such work, just like I wouldn't into other things in life that I may find immoral or somehow wrong.

The govt won't force you. The govt will only fine you and shut you down and the people you discriminate against will walk away with big bucks. I highly doubt you have any type of business if you are so unfamiliar with federal and state discrimination laws. All these businesses who lost claimed the same thing...moral and religious beliefs. It didn't work for them and it won't work for you. It is no different than discriminating against race. Do you think you can refuse clients because of their race?

[photobuggie]

http://www.foxnews.c...ding-reception/

The ACLU appears to be more than happy to file suit on behalf of discriminated same sex couples.

[m&m]

filing a case and winning are two different things. Also racism and and sexual orientation are two different things. Sexual discrimination is not clearly defined when it comes to g a y, mainly because there is no clear overall position and some states actually clearly deny the opportunity to same sex marriages. In my state no court will even toy with the idea of holding a marriage ceremony for same sex couples. Perhaps ACLU should sue those states. They don't as they would loose.

[m&m]

photobuggie, on 13 January 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

The govt won't force you. The govt will only fine you and shut you down and the people you discriminate against will walk away with big bucks. I highly doubt you have any type of business if you are so unfamiliar with federal and state discrimination laws. All these businesses who lost claimed the same thing...moral and religious beliefs. It didn't work for them and it won't work for you. It is no different than discriminating against race. Do you think you can refuse clients because of their race?

Again can't sue you for something you never had an agreement to do in the first place. The only way I see a point in what you are saying is if both the couple and I signed a contract and then I refused to do the work. Even then we are only talking about a court case, but it would be the court's decision, which there is no telling what it would be. You never know.

You can doubt all you want, but my business is doing great. It reflects my morals and beliefs and seems to work for my clients, never had an issue with anyone in the g a y community. Just wouldn't shoot a same sex wedding. In fact never even had anyone ask, probably because where I live g a y weddings don't happen and same sex things are very much a tabu. I am sure there are g a y people here, they just don't have the numbers and power to push and mainstream their lifestyle like in other states. so once again it is just a waste of time to even argue about this.

[m&m]

photobuggie, on 13 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

http://www.foxnews.c...ding-reception/

The ACLU appears to be more than happy to file suit on behalf of discriminated same sex couples.

this was only possible because it was in verrmont, a state that allows g a y marriages. Wouldn't work in a state where marriage is defined as between a man and a woman.

[Dave W]

really? the endless, pointless bickering is wearing on me