Shann:

 is a very good photographer and at $700 for images on disc, the client is getting a steal - you may not value that, and her client doesn't seem to value that, but I do and there are lots that would agree with me as well.

 

Thanks Shann!   I just need to figure out how to find those clients that agree w/ that.  I am finding out the hard way its not in my current circle of friends/collegues.  They love my stuff...but with a few exceptions they usually don't spend more than $300.  I can't continue to do this for $300 orders.  I would love to serve the middle market....but its such a tough market to conquer.  They seem to want all the high end style, but they don't want to pay what it is worth.  The discount and bargaining mentality is so heavily entrenched in the middle class.  Its sad really.  No one wants quality anymore.  They would rather have more of something that is cheap than less of something that is quality. 

BTW The order for this session came in yesterday....it was just above my minimum to make the session worthwhile from a business standpoint.  She didn't go for my upsell to $500 let alone the DVD. It also came with lots of complients and thanks which I really appreciated but also a comment that she is tempted to use a chain studio for the 6 and 12 month sessions b/c they don't charge sitting fees and have lower print costs.  At that point I realize this is not woth pursuing any further...If she values photography she will realize at some point what I am offering is a much better value and be back.  If she doesn't than she will be happy with her chain studio pictures and I will be happy to not have worked my rear end off for an order that covers my costs/time at a minimum rate. 

  Now I need to figure out how to seek customers that want what I have to offer and how to improve my selling skills/ordering process.  

Well-said Shann !  Although I somewhat disagree with one point in terms of equipment.  I shoot all my 35mm formats on very old, very reliable and well-maintained Nikon F-2A's, usually with drives and mostly fixed focus Nikkor lenses. Medium format is usually on a Hassie 500CM or 501. 

In addition, I think Quilter missed one significant point as well.  K-Mart, Walmart and all those types of places offer portraits as a "loss leader" to get people into the store to shop for other junk. The store eats the loss, albeit minimal, for paying some kid to used a fixed lighting, fixed focus set-up, and who hasn't got any idea what the word or concept of "talent" involves unless the consumer gets very lucky.  The point is, we sell a service, skill, and an art.  When people tell you they want to go to Walmart, I'd tell them "please do" and then when they're ready to be reshot, tell them to bring their checkbook and come back and see you. ;>)

Ah but how many people don't walk out of there without spending alot more that the $6.95 sitting fee? I think the average is probably closer to $100-200, and you made an assumption about me, the customer. I never said I went to a chain store.I said I never spent more than $200 dollars on individual prints of my kids.

We have many levels of photographers here in my area. The best one does all the corporate headshots, She did mine and when she did I bought 4 5X7's and it was $125 (this was in 04). She had already made her money on the shoot so this was a bonus and I got pictures for my kids. They were top quality and worth every penny but everyone knows what she charges and her clients are the ones who can afford her. She would not get a client who was "surprised" by her prices. Her marketing is appropriate to her client base.

I think that was my point is that you can take top level pictures but your sales will and does depend on your target customer base and what they are willing to spend.

I am going to use my job as an example as it is the best I can come up with. I do production planning. My responsibility set up our production lines to run the right products to fill our orders. I need to do this in a way that I can meet the customers demand and still run the lines efficiently. Job changes take time and lose productivity, so I need to make sure that I minimize the job changes and still make the customers happy. Unhappy customers go elsewhere. The problem is if I focus only on the customer and do a job change every time I get a new order, the cost goes up and pretty soon the plant is losing money. So even though our customers are delighted, we have lost money and must close our doors.

That is what I see discussed here the most. Fabulous photographers who are not looking at it as a business and why I was using the examples of the same industry targeting their clients and doing it sucessfully. Doesn't matter how good you are or how much you spend on equipment if you make no money and have unhappy customers. You and only you can target the customers you want and how you market to them.

"The best one does all the corporate headshots, She did mine and when she did I bought 4 5X7's and it was $125 (this was in 04). She had already made her money on the shoot so this was a bonus and I got pictures for my kids."

You know what?  From everything you've written I don't think you really understand at all how this business works and you essentially summed that up with the quote above.  I do corporate head shots.  Lots of them. And incidental to that service, I offer prints to those who may want them, whether they're the same shots or different from the ones their corporate staff wanted.  In other words, while prints might be considered a commodity, the bulk of a professional photographer's labors are billed in terms of service. When I provide prints, my TIME is involved to take the order, decide on any cropping, sending them out for printing and getting them delivered. I charge a premium for my time. It's how I earn my living. What our time is worth is up to the individual and depends largely on their abilities, the investment they have in their equipment, their level of self-esteem, their level of experience AND how they market/sell themselves to their clients, plus all our expenses associated with doing business from association dues to pro publications. None of this is simply a question of "whatever the traffic will bear".  And prints are not an incidental part of the shoot fee.  That's separate.  Always has been, always should be.  Anyone who's not charging accordingly either doesn't understand how this works OR is short-changing themselves and I don't care what their market is.  If they think they have the bankroll to compete with Target and Walmart, they're really kidding themselves.  

quilterbyheart:

She had already made her money on the shoot so this was a bonus and I got pictures for my kids.

Another miss here. I charge $100 for a session. Really - all that is a status price and means very little in my profits when it comes to what I need to earn off a client. $100 doesn't even come close to covering my time and costs for doing a sitting. Dude - half of that goes to the babysitter for watching my kid while I work - giving me the same exact wage as the babysitter! I spend 40 hours on a client - only 3 hours of that is the actual session - would you work 40 hours for $100?

In my clients mind I'm making like $100/hr and I need them to perceive the value of my time as such in order to get the clients I need, so there is both a practical and a mental reason for the session fee.

Photographers who are hired to do shools and corporate shoots absolutely depend on the print sales from those shoots, they are not just bonus.

Oh - and mckelle, I know what you mean. All my friends aren't even close to the income level as my clients need to be. My close friends get the super friend deal, but they know when they refer me to anyone that those referrals are told the full regular prices. The friend of a friend doesn't get any special discounts. I can't do pricing based on the persons' $$ ability. When it comes to someone I don't share bra's with, they get to pay me what I'm worth - haha.

I would just tell your "friend", thank you so much for your order and all the compliments on your images. Your images are fantastic and I'd be happy to photograph for you again when you're ready.

If she pushes the cost issue further, I'd say, Thank you for your interest in my work. I take pride in my photography producing high quality portraits and invest a significant amout of time and resources in producing images and products from every session I shoot as is reflected in my pricing. I welcome you to shop around, and when you find that my work is on par with the best of them and you already know what a blast I am to work with, I will be available to schedule your next portrait session. I look forward to hearing from you. Oh - and don't forget, Fathers Day is coming up and we have the cutest wallet books for Dad!

(Always upsell - haha)

 

 

 

 What you have here is a failure to communicate.  You are NOT selling photos, you are selling your talent.  With todays cameras almost anyone can go out and take a bunch of snapshops.  As a professional you should not be taking snapshops.  Years ago when I shot weddings I had a bride say to me "My uncle got a picture just as good as that one".  My answer was "Maybe, but I have 500 more just like that".  Sell your time and talent not the prints.

Dwight

 

 I agree with quilter that the camera companies, labs, etc., are all targeting the consumer market b/c it is much much larger and potentially bigger spenders than the pool of professionals.  The internet brings the info to their desktops, YouTube shows them how to do it, some of their friends get better and shoot and give the consumers many shots they would have gladly paid for 10 years ago or more.  Much work is "good enough" for the frig door magnets.  Many professionals have not recognized that folks don't want albums, or many pieces of artistic portraits on the the walls, they want them in changing digital frames, to send them along in e-mails, and they do want to archive the files themselves for future use. We have become a DYI culture.

I frankly think that many of us newer comers and part-timers need to structure our prices so that we cut overhead costs/time etc and deliver files they want and can use and generate referrals because we do deliver better than the average consumer/big box images but not necessarily high culture photo portrait art to middle America and even some upper class Americans.  Time is not spent on delivering, ordering, hasseling, explaining as they order their own prints allows the new generation photographer  time to do another $500-800-$1000 session that is almost all income and little costs of goods sold.  Getting decent work out as digital files at these prices generates repeat business and new business without much cost or time to the photographer.  Those who are established, who create fine art portraits pursue those clients who desire and value and will pay for that experience will still be sought by a segment of the community; Some of the consumers who engage the "less expensive, digital" style photographers will occasionally want the exceptional portrait experience, just like going out to a fine restaurant is not an everyday or  even a yearly event for everyone...but there will be events, times, etc., that they elect to have a fine art style portrait done. 

There is a place for both models in the professional world.  What's killing us is the ones who give away the house, the barn, and their kid with their free sessions and $8 8x10s, etc.

Mark Feldstein:

BTW, Patrick, I was born and raised on the near-north side and went to Lane Tech for H.S. and Northwestern after.  Small world, but I'd hate to have to paint it.  Can I retain you to smuggle Vienna salamis to me in N. Calif?  Their resale store is on N. Damen near the Kennedy. 

Enjoy the weekend all.  And Patrick, thanks for your kind words too.  I appreciate it. 

Ever been to Hot Doug's? Sorry, had to ask. I haven't, but it's on the list. I live near there.

I haven't.  But I was a founding patron of "Mustards Last Stand" in Evanston, Wolfy's and Flukey's, and Hot Dog Island in Evanston too.  Oh yeah, did I mention Helix on S. Racine?  Their hot dogs aren't so hot but their equipment and supplies are pretty good.  Oh and Central Camera on S. Wabash.  :>))