Did I ever mention I love this forum?  Okay, I'm won over.  For those that asked me my prices, they luck out with what I quoted.  I'm going to charge $20.00 for an 8X10.  lphoto, thanks for posting this thread.

lphoto:

I don't understand the analogy of "everyone would make their copies at the corner digital photo store" if you charged more.  I don't think it matters what you sell a print for if you have a customer that is inclined to violate copyright law.  They will copy it whether it is $12 or $20.

It isn't an analogy.  It is a simple observation.  And I respectfully disagree and offer evidence to the contrary.  Consider Microsoft Office.  15 years ago, Word cost $399 and Excel cost $399 and so on... LOTS of otherwise honest people rationalized their way into stealing that software.

Now, you can get those programs for less than $99 each.  Most of those same people suddenly had a stroke of integrity and decided at that price, it wasn't worth carrying the load on the conscience knowing that they were stealing.

There IS a price-point at which the general population will steal, rather than pay.  They quite easily justify it - wrongly or not - by telling themselves that the seller was trying to take advantage of them to begin with, so they rationalize that it is ok to take advantage back.

Further, like most intellectual property, they don't actually STEAL a physical object from you or deprive you of that object.  This makes it much easier for people to rationalize stealing it.  You didn't lose it, they took a COPY.  And finally, many people believe - again, wrongly - that since the image is OF THEM, they somehow have more right to it than you do.  All of those things create a circumstance in which if you overprice your product, people will have a breaking point and they will steal from you at that point.  This is observable.

If your price is low enough, then they lose many of the previously mentioned rationalizations and they will often choose to pay the "fair" price for the prints. 

That's fine if you want to approach it that way.  You are ultimately correct in your perspective.  But I can tell you from a perspective that you are no longer able to perceive - the customer's perspective.  My point is that the customer's perspective has changed with the internet.  Most of them HAVE printed at an online printer.  They KNOW what it costs to get a print made, and when they see your print prices, they start to feel taken advantage of in some cases.

I have mentioned elsewhere, I used a wedding photographer that was willing to sell us a CD with the images at the end of the deal.  Lots of wedding photographers won't do that, and more power to the ones that can hold off.  But as a customer, there are a zillion photographers with a shingle up claiming to be professional.  I can see their work on their websites and I can ask for references.  So when it comes time to hire one, I can use someone who has met my criteria and will sell me a CD with the images, or one that won't.  I know what choice I made.

I am not telling anyone how to run their business, but I believe the "make the money on the prints" days are fading away, and you better have a business model that allows you to make your money upfront on the sitting fee.  Alternatively, selling the CD is an option too, and many people would pay a reasonable premium for the control that gives them, even though they will have to pay the (admittedly paltry) fees to have them printed themselves after they buy the CD. 

Tom_Steele:

 

This is a big debate, but again you end up at human nature and psychology.  If I am Joe Schmo and I come into your studio for a session, I can see that you have spent big $ on your gear.  Fancy lights, backdrops and camera equipment.  I can justify paying for the sitting fee.

Okay, entirely out of curiosity, asking for a customers perspective, and with no pending judgment or ill intent... I've got to ask a question or two. 

1.  What would you consider a reasonable fee?

2.  Would you still feel justified paying it to someone without a studio and an obvious investment in gear?  Someone shooting you on location in your home or a park?

 

I ask out of curiosity... You're not my target market, but you probably are for a lot of people around here.  Your insights offer a great perspective.  :o)

Tom_Steele:

I am not telling anyone how to run their business, but I believe the "make the money on the prints" days are fading away, and you better have a business model that allows you to make your money upfront on the sitting fee.  Alternatively, selling the CD is an option too, and many people would pay a reasonable premium for the control that gives them, even though they will have to pay the (admittedly paltry) fees to have them printed themselves after they buy the CD. 

Ok Tom - I have to ask so excuse me in advance for doing so.  Are you a consumer or are you in the photography business?  If it is a business, what do you charge for an 8x10 since that seems to be relevant subject here.  If you are not in the business, then how can you determine what something should be priced at?

I am not trying to be rude or anything like that but your answers all seem to be from the comsumer point of view rather than one from someone who is trying to make a living in this business. 

 

We all know there are some really great photographers out there, who don't own businesses.  Like me, LOL!  And MOST of the time, the style of pictures I like and would frame in my house are casual portraits, or snapshots of family and friends, whoever took it!  But to answer Mike,  for certain occasions, I think it's really important to get a professional portrait photo.  Weddings, absolutely.  Professional types, like doctors, absolutely.  High school seniors, yes.  Important family reunions, oh yeah.  Probably many more that I'm not thinking of right now......I would want someone really good,  but I would expect that they would make their dough out of the sitting fee,  because it's just not like me to order a bunch or teenie little pictures.  For something like a corporate/business portrait, I can't see getting a big enlargment, and a handful of smaller ones, and a small web quality file for under a thousand bucks.  And yes, I would check out their portfolio and studio before hiring anyone. (And I would want to see a large format camera in it!)   Probably about the same for a really great senior.   Weddings, I have no clue, but it would be a lot.  Folks seem quick to bash "Hobbyists" for sneaking into their market, but I think, at least for high end stuff, customers appreciate the talent involved.  They are more concerned with the final product than quibbling over the price of an 8x10.  Because it's something we can't do ourselves...... heirloom quality art.  I absolutely love photography, and I'm glad that someties I'm good at it.  But I'm not out to replace a real pro for anything important.  Not really my thing anyway!   

Iphoto, Tom is a really good photographer.  He always knows his stuff with the technical questions.  And his photos are lovely.  Anyway, wouldn't you WANT to hear what potential customers (i.e. not commercial photographers) have to say about things?  I would think that is why this site is really informative.  There are a fair amount of members who have the same skills and gear as  some of the pros.  Just different day jobs.......

Raizy:

Did I ever mention I love this forum?  Okay, I'm won over.  For those that asked me my prices, they luck out with what I quoted.  I'm going to charge $20.00 for an 8X10.  lphoto, thanks for posting this thread.

Raizy - your welcome, although my original intent was not to get into a debate over pricing other than to mention the comparison form long ago.

If you really want to be successful at this business, then you have to sell YOU.  As Tx mentioned in one of his earlier posts, that includes all aspects from the first impression and everything that comes afterwards. 

Some on here claim success by charging a high sitting fee and then prints for almost cost.  Others do it totally different on the opposite end of the spectrum.  I think it should be a combination of both.

I am preparing to begin booking wedding clients again after having taken a few years for a break.  My wedding collections will start in the $3500 range and go up from there.  Will that be for everyone?  Of course not, but I bet there will be more than a few that will be willing to pay me what I think I am worth.   To those that are not willing to pay my price, I am sure there are plenty out there willing to do it for much less.

Good luck with your business but please remember to not feel rejected when someone says they can't afford you.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results.

 

shannone:

Iphoto, Tom is a really good photographer.  He always knows his stuff with the technical questions.  And his photos are lovely.  Anyway, wouldn't you WANT to hear what potential customers (i.e. not commercial photographers) have to say about things?  I would think that is why this site is really informative.  There are a fair amount of members who have the same skills and gear as  some of the pros.  Just different day jobs.......

I agree he does good work but that has nothing to do with this debate.  The debate is also not about whether members have the same skill set or the same gear.  It is about setting prices and getting paid what it is worth.

While listening to potential customers is good idea, when it comes to setting prices.... OUCH .... I bet they would all like to do so.   I suspect if we allowed customers to set our prices (which is apparently what some will allow them to do), we would all be bankrupt and then the subject of most of these posts would be a mute point.

 

I agree to listening to the customer. That is why i made a mix and match option. This allows the customer to order just what they need. In addition to those that need to be told what to order, i have set packages for them.

I usually charge $25-$50 for session fees. Depending on what the customer wants. Now we all want satisfied customers. So if they ask for something special i try to accommodate.  

TxMensan:

Okay, entirely out of curiosity, asking for a customers perspective, and with no pending judgment or ill intent... I've got to ask a question or two. 

1.  What would you consider a reasonable fee?

For what?  Wedding?  Family portraits?  I think it depends.  I'm not a sentimental person.  For me, with family portraits, I'm pretty much ok with the Sears plan.  That is to say, competent shots that record what the family looks like for memory's sake.  I know that there are folks who will pay for the kind of work you do too Mike, but I'm probably not that person.  I also think your situation is somewhat unique.  You are aiming for the high-end segment and the rules will be different for you.  The folks on here who are complaining about someone scanning 5x7's and handing them out to the family are probably not talking about your customer base.

For the typical, professional photographer they aren't going to get your kind of clients and they aren't going to get that kind of money and they are going to have to find a business model that takes into account scanning, printing and copyright infringement.  They can complain all they want, but enforcing it is to much effort.  Finding a way to get the customer to pay a reasonable fee up front is the way to go.

To answer your question, I'd say between $100-$250 depending on your presentation and the time spent.  If I am coming to your basement where you have some backdrops set up, I'm not expecting to pay as much.  If I am coming to your studio in the strip mall (or better) then I am expecting that you are serious about your business and not just dipping your toes in or just starting out, and hopefully I have seen your work, had recommendations from friends and am being wowed by the sizzle - since I really can't see the steak for a little while.

Some of that goes out the window if you have established yourself and you are a known quantity.  I think that is one area where we seem to be in disagreement, but I think we are more on the same side than you realize.  Your posts seem to take everyone's word that they are really as good as they think they are.  I've been in the C&C section and there are a lot of people who are setting up shop as professional photographers that do not have those things.  They want to start at 10 without having to work their way up to 10.  I don't see many folks talking about how they apprenticed with a professional for several years.  (There are SOME - many in this thread - but there are a lot who are jumping in with a Dig Reb and kit lens and calling themselves "pro.")  I don't see many folks who have a studio that isn't in their home.  I see "pros" who know little or nothing about their cameras and lenses and photography in general.  To be fair, some of those folks have a really good "eye" and they are probably getting some good pictures from time to time.  But many of them have no concept of self-evaluation and ego-check.  Because they have gotten some good shots, they think they are good and they never step back and say, "Maybe the 'education' part of photography is important too, because then I could know why some of them turned out and some didn't and I could increase my good/bad ratio and maybe I could make the camera capture what I see more often, etc..." 

So if you've been in business for a while, you've built up a reputation (business and photography skill) and you've invested in good equipment and you have a portfolio that shows that you get good images, then your price is going to be much higher.  There IS a market for premium EVERYTHING.  You should see what I pay for my dog's food compared to the grocery/pet store brands!  But you have to convince the customer that you really do have something worth paying that premium for or they will balk. 

Getting back to steak vs sizzle.  That's another area that depends.  When you show me the proofs, if they are ART - photos that take my breath away, photos that offer me something I KNOW that I couldn't have captured on my own - then I'm going to be far more willing to pay a premium to buy prints from you.  But even there, the customer is starting to think, "I've already spent $250 and I've got nothing in my hands yet!"  And again, it will depend on the customer.  Someone who has a household income of $30k a year is going to look at $100 print prices and start thinking of a way around that price.  Someone with a six-figure income might think it is reasonable.  But it doesn't take a long look at the IRS numbers to learn that it is a pretty small portion of the population that is making six-figures.

So, if your images are WOW images, you can get more for them.  If your images are "Hey, you are as good as the school photographer!" then people are going to expect to pay what the school photographer charges. 

2.  Would you still feel justified paying it to someone without a studio and an obvious investment in gear?  Someone shooting you on location in your home or a park?

No.  Now if I was meeting someone who had all those things, but we were going to shoot at my house, or the park, then that wouldn't matter to me.  But I think as a customer, knowing that the photographer has a studio means he/she's for real.  They aren't someone who "hasn't made it yet."  This is someone who knows what they are doing well enough to have established themselves in business as a photographer.  

As others have said, the truth of the matter is that being a professional photographer is part photography and part businessperson.

Here's an interesting analogy.  If you are at your studio and a salesperson from a radio station pulls up in a beat up old car, wearing a cheap suit that doesn't fit well and wants you to spend several thousand dollars advertising on his radio station - what are you going to think?  What if shortly afterwards, a salesperson from the local TV station (or another radio station - whatever) pulls up in a new Mercedes wearing a nice silk suit and wants you to spend several thousand dollars advertising on his station.  Which one is most likely to get your money?

I'd bet most people would go with the "successful looking" salesperson.  It is human nature to want to associate yourself with successful people.  The guy in the ill-fitting suit isn't successful himself, why would you think he can help you be successful?  The salesperson who is showing that he/she is successful gives you the impression that they know their business and are good at it, so they are more likely to help you with your business.

The same applies for photography, if someone wants me to spend several hundred dollars for a sitting fee and then order a large number of very expensive (relative to commodity cost) prints, they better not pull up in the beater with a modest camera and a kit lens.
 

I ask out of curiosity... You're not my target market, but you probably are for a lot of people around here.  Your insights offer a great perspective.  :o)

What is your target market?  I suspect financially I might make it - maybe.  But first off, I'm a guy and worse yet I'm the kind of person who thinks I can do anything.  Finish the basement, I can do it myself for less.  Fix the brakes on the car, I can do that - why pay more at a shop?  Install new gas lines to the water heater, what's the worst that could happen?   You get the idea.

But I could afford your prices, I just wouldn't.  I'm a little too cheap.

Now don't get me wrong, I've seen some of your work and I get what you do is NOT Sears photography.  And that isn't a slam on Sears photographers.  I'm just saying  you do create - for lack of a less pretentious term - art.  Your photos are not something that most people would look at and think, "I could do that with my camera."  And as I think about it, maybe I am below your market.  I'm in the "I could afford that, but it seems like a lot for some photos" where maybe you are looking for a "that amount means nothing to me, and I want the best and I'll pay for it" kind of person.

In the end, I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do believe that it is going to be very hard to hold the line against selling images and reproduction rights for MOST photographers.  So the answer to that is to come up with a business plan that supports that model.  Or, to do as you are doing and go for the high-end market where people are willing to pay top dollar for top quality.  But I just don't think that photographers who are pulling a blue backdrop down from the ceiling and taking a few dozen pictures of the family are going to be able to hold out against it.

lphoto:

Ok Tom - I have to ask so excuse me in advance for doing so.  Are you a consumer or are you in the photography business?  If it is a business, what do you charge for an 8x10 since that seems to be relevant subject here.  If you are not in the business, then how can you determine what something should be priced at?

I am not trying to be rude or anything like that but your answers all seem to be from the comsumer point of view rather than one from someone who is trying to make a living in this business.

Don't worry, I have very thick skin.  I enjoy discussing these things and I can be wrong.  Well, not really.  I thought that I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.   

Anyway, to your question.  Photography is a hobby for me.  I have no intention whatsoever on becoming a professional photographer, other than perhaps doing some stock photography as a sideline.

As for how I can determine what it should be priced at, I can understand basic business concepts and arrive at prices.  You don't have to be a professional photographer to put together a business plan.  However, I'm not trying to tell you what to price an 8x10 at, I'm just telling you that if you price it too high, and you don't have some way of convincing the customer that you are worth that huge premium, they will balk.  If your photos are good, but you are charging $100 for an 8x10 and that person has been online and had 8x10's made at $2 a pop, they are not going to play fair.  They are going do decide that you are screwing them over and they are going to fight back.  At least many will.

On the other hand, as I told Mike.  If you have the steak to go with the sizzle, maybe you can get $100 for an 8x10.  If that parent looks at that photo and thinks, "I could not have done this myself and probaby couldn't have gotten anyone else that could have done this better!" then they may be tipping you on top of the $100.  But you've gotta bowl them over to command those prices one way or another.

But my point in jumping in here is to basically say a couple of things. 

1.  I think that for MOST professional photographers, the business model is going to have to include digital files and image reproduction rights.  Hold out if you can!  But I think it will be difficult. 

2.  I think that the old model of trying to pick up a good deal of your income from print sales is going to have to change.  I'm not saying lose money on the prints, but I think the markup on prints is going to have to be cut and the money made up on the front side of the deal.

They're just opinions and I don't mind if you disagree and rip them to shreds. 

lphoto:

If you really want to be successful at this business, then you have to sell YOU.  As Tx mentioned in one of his earlier posts, that includes all aspects from the first impression and everything that comes afterwards.

Ohh, an area that we very much agree on! 

Some on here claim success by charging a high sitting fee and then prints for almost cost.  Others do it totally different on the opposite end of the spectrum.  I think it should be a combination of both.

I am preparing to begin booking wedding clients again after having taken a few years for a break.  My wedding collections will start in the $3500 range and go up from there.  Will that be for everyone?  Of course not, but I bet there will be more than a few that will be willing to pay me what I think I am worth.   To those that are not willing to pay my price, I am sure there are plenty out there willing to do it for much less.

I like the package deals.  That is very much like the upfront sitting fee.  Maybe the best of both worlds.  If you sell a package, the person goes in knowing what to expect, and I'm assuming (and hoping) that a $3,500 fee includes a very USABLE print package.  If so, then someone can budget for the wedding and not feel like they are getting taken advantage of on the back end.  In fact, just the opposite, because the prints will almost feel "free" since they are getting to pick them out and get the prints and they've already paid for them, instead of psychologically thinking, "If I get that one it will add $100 to what I'm paying."

Packages actually address what I've been saying.  You get the money upfront, and you don't "nickel and dime" them after the fact with high print prices.  Sure, maybe on paper you are assigning high prices to the prints in the package, but in reality you are pretty much just charging a high "sitting fee."

I will say that you would have been out of my budget though!  I don't know if I spent $3,500 on the whole wedding.
 

Thanks Tom!  I really appreciate you taking the time to give such a complete answer.  It helps. 

My concern has been that all of the newbies are pricing themselves based on consumer expectations.  And, with the numbers that you just gave it would be impossible for a person to make their photography into a viable business that can support them and their family.  The math just doesn't work unless it is based on tremendous volume.

So, that's what got me to asking the question on my other thread.  Basically, a photog should be able to say why someone needs a professional - and more importantly, why they should use them in particular and pay their rates.  Otherwise, the tendency is to slip into the model you described, which is great for Sears, but will eventually burn out an individual that honestly expects to make a career out of photography.   

Nevertheless, people try to do it on the popular expectations (or consumer terms) and the market becomes saturated with "pros" that are looking to charge what the consumer demands.  Then it becomes even more important to be able to explain why someone should use them over someone else...

Make sense?  I guess this is why I've been getting hung up on pricing and keep coming back to it when it comes up...  If you want to be a professional photographer, you have to see what it is going to take in order to stay afloat.  Then, make a business model that can provide it.  Too many people don't go about it this way.  They're going to be trapped if they can't justify why their should be charging more.

As for my target demographic... you don't fit!  ;o)   For my clients it can't be about cost/benefit analysis.  It's got to be an emotional purchase.  I have to be able to offer something - both in art and in experience - that makes them realize that comparing us to a photo mill (such as Sears) isn't a true comparison.  They have to walk away happy to have given us their money in exchange for the experience they had with us, and the art that we created just for them.  I just had someone today ask if I was crazy charging $275 for a session with no prints...  They're not my target either.  My target is the mom who's jaw drops at the images we create and simply must have one.  They're not buying a picture - they're buying something much less tangible. 

We're still carving out this niche of family clients.  We are there with brides though.  Just as Scott mentioned in another post, we spend time with our brides that makes them forget how expensive we are and just makes them grateful that we're a part of everything.  No way every wedding shot is a work of art.  But, a client can still be glad that we were the ones that were a part of it to begin with... 

I think photography has gotten to be losing game is all you are selling is the paper withe image on it.  We can't survive selling product.  We have to sell something more emotional, more important, and less able to be comparison shopped.

So, am I still coherent?  :o)  Thanks again Tom! 

TxMensan:

I think photography has gotten to be losing game is all you are selling is the paper withe image on it.  We can't survive selling product.  We have to sell something more emotional, more important, and less able to be comparison shopped.

Yes, very coherent Mike!  If I were lived in your market, and needed the job done, the general idea you have given of your product and price range wouldn't be right in line.  But, we both know these things vary wildly depending on location.  Not to say all affluent areas are a walk in the park.  I'm always freaked out when I see someone with more money than they know what to do with get into a "nickle and dime" argument anywhere they can find one!  As for the gear thing, I think that's also market specific.  If I'm willing to plop down a grand for a simple corporate portrait, It's not going to be in someone's  laundrey room with a digital rebel.  I don't mean to come off as sounding snobby here, just honest.  I live in two very upscale parts of the country.  While I'm at home now, my background is in media and marketing.  So I notice this stuff.  And that was probably ballpark for my two zip codes. High end but not over the top.   Pricing is an issue that comes up here all the time.  I figured folks would appreciate my honesty.  I'm surprised that so many here are more reluctant to post what they would pay, as opposed to what they would charge.  

 So Professionals, what do we do?

We cant set price.  We could set pricing standards.  Other industry does, why not photography.  Why cant wppi, ppa or other or both set some industry standards for pricing?    To me this sounds like a pretty good idea.

i think one thing that many miss in their price setting schedule is this new thing called retirement.  When I started I wanted to retire by the time I was 40.  Its too late for that.  I wanted to be able to pay my children's way to college, they now better make some good grades.

Quality of life and retirement and provision for our children and family needs to go into the  figure when we are pricing everything out.  Every other professional does this but photographers get a case of brain farts when it comes to economics.  Lets say a good living is 40k or 60k per year.   Add related overhead then taxes then quality of live then retirement investments and you need to rake in 150k per year for a small studio.  Thats a lot of 25$ sitting fees, 10$ 8x10 prints and $750 weddings.

Actually, I believe that the professional studio as we know it is on its last leg.  Event photography is soon going to be offered by Sears, The Picture People (who already have this in test phase) the company that has studios in walmart and there are new companies that specialize in event type photography.  I have loved photography for over 20 years and offer anything I can to the advancement of professional photography, yet we have adjusted our business in reaction to these changes.  I believe these changes are good for my business and family.    At 40 years old I cant wait around for the industry to come back around, retirement is just around the bend and I don't intend to be the 65 year old wedding photographer in town.

Hitefield

This is an interesting topic.  I am not a professional portrait photog and don't pretend to be.  I am not in that business, but find this all interesting.  From the CUSTOMER point of view here....

People think they get what they pay for.  If I pay more for a photographer, I expect more.  If you charge a $25 sitting fee, I won't even bother.  To me that says "cheapo".  [I don't know any of you or your work so don't be offended -- it is a generalization]  On the other hand, I am middle class with a moderate income.  I will not spend $1500 on family portraits becuase I can't afford it.  If I could, I certainly would.

Some of the portrait photogs around here have what I figure is pretty reasonable plan.  They charge 300-500 dollars for a session depending on which one you talk too.  That includes about half of the sitting fee back in prints and a full quality DVD of all the images unedited.  So for example, you pay 500, but get $250 worth of prints.  If the customer walks away with the digital files, the photog gets the $500.  IF the customer wants more pics, you sell them more prints.  If they want less, they still pay you 500 smackers. 

I also find it interesting/surprising that so many professionals discuss this sort of business topic on a public forum and use their business names.  This forum is searchable, so your customer can google your business name and pull up this forum.  The customer will then assume you print your stuff at MPIX and know how much you pay for cost on prints.  How do you think I found MPIX?  I am certainly glad I found it, but also found it interesting to know how reasonable print prices were from a high quality lab.  I love photography as a hobby, and have printed several of my landscape/wildlife shots through MPIX and love the service. 

 

Humm...    What do you mean by: 

"If you charge a $25 sitting fee, I won't even bother.  To me that says "cheapo"."

And no worries.. I don't have feelings anymore... on/off  that's about it...

 

TOM YOUR THE ROCKER OF THEM ALL!!    And guys.. thanks for kicking this ball around like you have.