I know this is a common complaint on here....but just looking for input on how others would respond to this....this was prompted by my giving her DVD price of $700 for all files at full resolution.  I don't want to be defensive, but I also am certainly not backing down from my pricing either.  This is also a friend/co-worker so its a little more touchy. 

"Woah guess I'm not buying the dvd. That's really expensive. Why can't u order just 4x6 prints? That is a very popular size for us common folk. Have to add my mom and mom-in-law order onto mine bc they only want that size. Noticed your prices on prints have really gone up since engagement session. Understand u need to make prophet, but wow this could get expensive. Makes me rethink the combo 6 & 12 month sessions."

 Wow, I didn't know you were a prophet!!!!!!!

I don't know, I struggle with the digital pricing myself. If they don't value you and your work it may not be worth it anyway. 

"I like to sell the DVDs because they are a great value to my customers, and it saves me a lot of time. I pass those savings on to my customersI I know $700 sounds like a lot, but it's actually a real bargain for my customers. You said you wanted to get prints for you,  your mom and mom in law. I'm sure there are some aunts and uncles that want prints too. My 4x6s go for $15 each. At that price that's less than 50 prints (17 prints each for the three of you), just for the 4x6s. After that, the savings start really piling up! With the DVD you can print 8x10s and all the way up to 20x30. As you know I sell a 20x30 for $150. If you get the favorite shot for each house, that's almost $500 and you don't have any 4x6s yet!  Once you have the DVD you can use the images on your web page, send them in email, use them for scrap books, really just about anything but sell them!"

Dave

Wow, push back for $700 wedding coverage, all digital images on DVD?  I would try to get out of this ASAP, some how.  Not sure how you do it, and with it being a co-worked, it's an even more touchy situation.  Maybe ask her to call around, and see if someone ELSE will give her a DVD of all digital images, including wedding coverage for $700.  And, if they do, then you're off the hook.  Maybe that would put a little light bulb over her head.  Maybe not, you never know. 

This should have all been laid out BEFORE you even took a single picture during her engagement session, while you were covering the contract and collecting money.  Friends or not, it's still business, and you still need to make a "prophet".

You also need to hit on what they're getting. All the images! They won't have to select down to just 3.

They will be priceless memories 10 and 20 years from now. In just a few years all she'll have to remember this time is the photos. She won't care she spent a lot, she'll only be happy she has them. She'll be able to use the pics in the kid's wedding slide show. (I'm thinking these are baby photos?)  Ask her what people take when you see them evacuating for a natural disaster? The pics, the laptop and the jewelry. What do you see people complaining about when their house burns to the ground? Lost photos. Not the lost couch or desk.

And so on.

You're selling memories, not files, not 8x10 sheets of inked up paper...

Dave

 Well said, Dave-on both posts. I am going to have to use this as the framework if I ever get this question.

devanmarie:

 Well said, Dave-on both posts. I am going to have to use this as the framework if I ever get this question.

No, you talk about it while you're doing every order so you sell more DVDs!

 Yes, you are right!

 Mckelle,

Going with Cort's theme of " teach a man to fish".....

I suggest 2 exercises for you.  One is mental.  You yourself have to understand what you are doing( selling)  Capturing history, memories, documenting a moment in time, etc...   There should be a lot of value in that right?   Once you understand that part. the second exercise is easier...

you need to practice physically saying  some of the phrases that DaveW.  posted.   say the ones that strike a cord with yourself.  say them outloud and over and over.  In the car, elevator, when walking... 

Pricing questions can catch you off guard so you need to train you mouth to say the right thing every time.

Print out dave's post study it and add some emotion:

My disk price?   (you say) there are 30 photos on the disk. each one can print at 20x30. I sell those for  $150 each......(pause)  Plus you can make a slide show when they are in high school  or  their wedding (short pause)  years from now with that disk.
  (Longer pause) ........so $700 is really a deal once you  understand what is possible 

Patrick:

you need to practice physically saying  some of the phrases that DaveW.  posted.   say the ones that strike a cord with yourself.  say them outloud and over and over.  In the car, elevator, when walking... 

Pricing questions can catch you off guard so you need to train you mouth to say the right thing every time.

Print out dave's post study it and add some emotion:

It may not be the exact words I said, they were me shooting from the hip, but you have to make it sound like you're saying it, sincerely.

Maybe ask them why they're having professional photos made.  It's not so they can get out of the house and go to a studio and have someone boss them around and sit in funny positions. It's not to get something to cover a hole in the wall. It's because they want the best possible image of this time and place, as a memory. It's to share the joy of the new baby, or the stage of this person's life with others around them. It's to capture that little smile or smirk that only their kid makes. Maybe its the brilliant blonde hair that will be brown in a few years. Maybe it's the way they stand with their hands on their hip and laugh... whatever.

damn, i'm good!

LOL

anyways, you have to be able to tell them in your own words why it's a great value and, they're less than a good mom if they don't do it, today!

well, guilting someone into buying something is bad karma, but you do have to believe in your product enough to speak passionately about it. If you believe in it, your customers will. If you don't, then why are you even offering it?

Dave

CenterofAttentionPhotography:

Wow, push back for $700 wedding coverage, all digital images on DVD?  I would try to get out of this ASAP, some how.  Not sure how you do it, and with it being a co-worked, it's an even more touchy situation.  Maybe ask her to call around, and see if someone ELSE will give her a DVD of all digital images, including wedding coverage for $700.  And, if they do, then you're off the hook.  Maybe that would put a little light bulb over her head.  Maybe not, you never know. 

This should have all been laid out BEFORE you even took a single picture during her engagement session, while you were covering the contract and collecting money.  Friends or not, it's still business, and you still need to make a "prophet".

sorry this might have been confusing w/ her mentioning the engagement session.  I did not do her wedding.  These were newborn photos.  All pricing was upfront before hand except the DVD. (I just started offering it, so I only mention on my pricing list that it is available.  They must inquire for pricing.  Obviously she did....and we didn't have a problem until that point.).

lphoto:

So, how much was the initial wedding package she purchased?

 I didn't do the wedding.  Just engagement and it was when I was just starting out.  I do think her wedding photog. "threw in" the DVD for them w/ their wedding package.  And he only had it priced at $350 to begin with but it may have had a qualifying purchase to get it at that price, and I know his coverage started around $2300. . That might be what she is comparing his DVD price to mine.  But I don't have to tell all of you that is not an apples to apples comparison. (my price vs. his).

Dave W:

Patrick:

you need to practice physically saying  some of the phrases that DaveW.  posted.   say the ones that strike a cord with yourself.  say them outloud and over and over.  In the car, elevator, when walking... 

Pricing questions can catch you off guard so you need to train you mouth to say the right thing every time.

Print out dave's post study it and add some emotion:

 

It may not be the exact words I said, they were me shooting from the hip, but you have to make it sound like you're saying it, sincerely.

Maybe ask them why they're having professional photos made.  It's not so they can get out of the house and go to a studio and have someone boss them around and sit in funny positions. It's not to get something to cover a hole in the wall. It's because they want the best possible image of this time and place, as a memory. It's to share the joy of the new baby, or the stage of this person's life with others around them. It's to capture that little smile or smirk that only their kid makes. Maybe its the brilliant blonde hair that will be brown in a few years. Maybe it's the way they stand with their hands on their hip and laugh... whatever.

damn, i'm good!

LOL

anyways, you have to be able to tell them in your own words why it's a great value and, they're less than a good mom if they don't do it, today!

well, guilting someone into buying something is bad karma, but you do have to believe in your product enough to speak passionately about it. If you believe in it, your customers will. If you don't, then why are you even offering it?

Dave

 

 

Thank you Dave for this...and the other comments.   This is very very helpful!   damn you are good!!

Patrick:

 Mckelle,

Going with Cort's theme of " teach a man to fish".....

I suggest 2 exercises for you.  One is mental.  You yourself have to understand what you are doing( selling)  Capturing history, memories, documenting a moment in time, etc...   There should be a lot of value in that right?   Once you understand that part. the second exercise is easier...

you need to practice physically saying  some of the phrases that DaveW.  posted.   say the ones that strike a cord with yourself.  say them outloud and over and over.  In the car, elevator, when walking... 

Pricing questions can catch you off guard so you need to train you mouth to say the right thing every time.

Print out dave's post study it and add some emotion:

My disk price?   (you say) there are 30 photos on the disk. each one can print at 20x30. I sell those for  $150 each......(pause)  Plus you can make a slide show when they are in high school  or  their wedding (short pause)  years from now with that disk.
  (Longer pause) ........so $700 is really a deal once you  understand what is possible 

Thank you Patrick! I will have to try this. I think the first part I understand (what I am selling) I just need to do a better job conveying it to clients.

Maybe you try " you're right, $700 sounds like a lot of money at first, but a lot of my customers are seeing real value in getting a disk of 50 high resolution images. What happens is they get all their orders together for the mom, their inlaws, a few aunts and uncles and it runs close to $500. Then they figure out for just $200 more, they get all the images, that they can legally print off a 30 copies of the first pic and 12 copies of the second and a bunch of 5x7s for all the family and when they add it all up, they see the $200 is a steal!

and like that there

Dave

ETA: most of what was above was a discussion of price and value, not memories. Gotta weave the memories part into it too.

That Dave... he could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves.

At $700 bucks, I think you should get a job shooting for a "non-prophet" organization.

I know some of you will hate me for this, but why do people who claim to be "professionals" whether for profit or not, insist on selling their work outright on CD for wholesale prices?   I don't get it.  It dilutes the whole industry.  Doesn't anyone here besides me read PDN? or any other pro trade publication?  Rangefinder?

Mark Feldstein:

At $700 bucks, I think you should get a job shooting for a "non-prophet" organization.

I know some of you will hate me for this, but why do people who claim to be "professionals" whether for profit or not, insist on selling their work outright on CD for wholesale prices?   I don't get it.  It dilutes the whole industry.  Doesn't anyone here besides me read PDN? or any other pro trade publication?  Rangefinder?

 

 Mark,
I will agree with you and tell you what I really think.

I think that ( in general) the "old timers" have spent too much time trying to sell 'shovels to the miners' if you know what I mean.  PDN and the others have done, In my opinion a REAL PISS POOR  job of informing the new photographers,  instead they want to charge you $1500 for a seminar ( lunch included) or buy this plastic thingy or that plastic gadget or Join this or that group. 

Fleecing the sheep is a very kind way to put it.  this industry  gets what they deserve.   There is a very strong group out there touting Buy THIS and YOU must have THAT!(PDN) ($65 a subscription? WTF!  My Crain's and WSJ subscription is less!)

   If they only understood that the next generation of photogs are the ones going to take care of " their" industry.

There are enough examples of Both good and bad in this industry...and enough blame to go around at all levels.

This is not aimed at you in any way.  I like your posts. THey are always full of new info.   keep it up.

We need you to chime in more about the business side.  Please teach the new people about VALUE.  The new photogs who are paying attention will really value your input.


New people need to start stepin' it up a bit too!   Come on folks,  time to dust off that public library card.


( my 2 cents)

Unfortunately Pat, you're exactly right.  A lot of this is education or lack thereof.  A lot of the pricing problem comes from self-esteem issues, like "Why would anyone pay me THAT for one of my pictures?"  And another segment of the value for service issue has to do with both skill and someone's deep, personal desire to be a "photographer" and all that may conjure up in their own minds.  About 30 years ago, an editor at the Sun Times, where I worked for a number of years, asked me why I charged so little for freelancing.   I was somewhat shocked to learn I was charging more than 50% less than the average photojournalist did for day rates for editorial work.  That changed for me real quick the first time an assignment editor immediately agreed to my fees to photograph some Federal judges.

As I said, one key to this is understanding the value of your work to your clients.  Get it?  Your work has V-A-L-U-E to the people who want to buy it or hire you to shoot it.  No matter what it is, whether portraits, or wedding shots, or scenics or products for advertising, it has value to them.  In other words, they bank on getting a return for their investment in YOUR work.  And whether it's a one-shot deal, or fee for taking a shot and using it in one single display ad or a whole series of ads using the same shot over time, IT HAS VALUE, IT MAKES SOMOENE ELSE MONEY.  If you're getting started in this biz, like ten years or less, I think, then you need to know how to calculate the value of your work to someone else.  There are lots of sources for that but learn how to calculate value of your jobs (not price but value) based on things like client's gross sales, marketing budget, the size of the shot in which magazine with what circulation, the number of people at the wedding, how many items on the menu, ad infinitim and repeat use fees vs. new shoots.  Seewhatimeanhuh?

BTW, Patrick, I was born and raised on the near-north side and went to Lane Tech for H.S. and Northwestern after.  Small world, but I'd hate to have to paint it.  Can I retain you to smuggle Vienna salamis to me in N. Calif?  Their resale store is on N. Damen near the Kennedy. 

Enjoy the weekend all.  And Patrick, thanks for your kind words too.  I appreciate it. 

 Mr. Mark,

Man, I saw  " Sun Times"  andI thought   YEah!   he is one of US!  Lane Tech?  sure thing... I am up on  lawrence & Clark  ( Kinetic Lofts!)  I bet you remember the concerts at the Kinetic!? ???  Cubs fan ( due to my Zip code)  I transplanted 20 years ago, but I am still getting used to the schools.I think there are 1 million of them.  but I know Lane tech. 

I know there is a fine line between price fixing and  " the going rate"  Lawyers, Doctors, Calogne sales, plumbers and Car dealers have all figured it out,  why can't we? 

Funny about painting the world!  that made me laugh.  
Soooo, If I knew a guy, who knew a guy who could get you some  Vienna Dogs.....     Ya' looking for the salamis or the tried and true dogs?  

I'm just sayin......  :)

This may be a snobby answer - but if she's talking about your pricing to you like that - I wouldn't want her for a customer at all - she obviously doesn't respect you or the talent of the work.

But hey, that's coming from someone who only books a small portion of her client inquiries. I'm ok with that though. I want someone to be able to afford me before I invest in all the time, work, and emotional investment I put in each of my clients.

When I talk about pricing to someone who thinks photographers charge a ton, I tell them they have no idea how much it costs to run a photography business, and the time and expense for the professional individualized service is way more than they are aware of.

Patrick - LOL, this is totally unrelated, my toddler just came up to me and said hey that's Partrick while I'm mpixing. I'm thinking how in the world did you learn how to read in the last 10 seconds!!! Took me a while to figure out your avatar was from the spongebob cartoon - god I hate that show, I thought I was doing a good job of being a non-spongebob home. Oops - anyhow thanks for the big laugh. Bumer he's not a reading genius though . . .

Ok, I am not a professional photographer and do not plan to ever be one, so just a different perspective here. (disclaimer)

 The Canon's, Nikon's and Sony's have done a great job selling their products and marketing to the professionl, amatuer and want to be photographer.

With the change to digital, you don't have all that wasted film and can delete the bad shots at no charge. That does not mean that every one who buys a camera is going to be your competition, it just means potentially 1 less customer for the middle class market photographer.

Again just my opinion but it appears that the real money has been moved to the teaching arena vs. the high end pro.

Do you pay 700+ dollars for prints from one day or buy a camera and take a lifetimes worth of your own (Ashton Kutcher commercials are a great example of that marketing strategy).

I make a decent living and can afford a few luxuries but I have never spent more than $200 on my childrens individual prints and many of them are boxed up. I do have a digital picture frame that I change the pictures in as the seasons change. Last years Christmas will be displayed during this years winter holidays. Last years birthday pictures during this years party, etc. etc. So I understand the desire for pictures on the disk.

When my daughter got married, that was my prerequisite for a photographer. I had to be able to get the disk and I paid extra for it. I have family out of town that could not make it to the wedding and they would want to see the pictures but not necessarily hang them in their home. Pay for the prints that get stuck in a drawer or email the prints. Emailed!

MPIX is another great example of how the amatuer can get great prints at an affordable price and not have to pay a photographer. That is part of their marketing as well.

So, after all this rambling I guess my point is that as a professional you need to know what your consumer(target market) wants and be able to provide it or your consumer will go elsewhere to get it. Huge difference between marketing material and family pictures, of course.

Again just my 2 cents as a consumer.

Sorry Quilterbyheart, but you are the exact opposited what a professional photographer needs in a client. You think all there is is a camera investement. I've spent over $20,000 in equiptment and only have 2 cameras, of which I have to replace every 2-3 years to keep up with technology. Not to mention the computer upgrades, software upgrades, business costs, insurance, professional memberships and contiuned education to learn how to use this crap over and over again.

Professional photographers need to earn way more than $200 per client to be out of the red. There are just so many more costs than a single 8x10.

You are the kind of person who needs to shop at the cheap chain studios - and that's ok. That's what they are there for. But don't expect to get any points with a professional photographer when you act like it's your right to get images on disc and print for cheap. You just don't grasp the value in good quality photography - so it isn't for you - and that's ok.

Mckelle is a very good photographer and at $700 for images on disc, the client is getting a steal - you may not value that, and her client doesn't seem to value that, but I do and there are lots that would agree with me as well.

No, I don't think I explained myself well enough. It is not that I didn't spend more because I didn't understand the value. It is because they did not do a good enough job on the product or selling to me. I spent a lot of money on the wedding photographer and bought the disc on top of that.

I am saying that the camera companies are telling people all they need is a camera! and are tapping into that market. 

The disk is important to most people but it should always be an add on after you make your sales so that it is a bonus and they have actual quality prints to compare it against.

I totally get how much it costs to run a bussiness. That is why I work for someone else, but if you have a customer considering cancelling their contracts ( 6 month and 12 month) you not only have lost a client but they are going to tell others. If they are not in your target market, fine. If they are then something is wrong with your plan or sales?